The Live Lightly Podcast

Jessica (00:00)
Hello and welcome back to the Live Lightly podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Franklin. And today we are going to talk about eco anxiety. It's a thing and how to manage it with my guest, Heather White. Heather White is the founder of onegreenthing.org, the author of three books published by Harper Collins. Her latest is titled Eco Anxiety.

She's a frequent spokesperson in the national media on environmental issues and has been featured on Good Morning America, CBS, PBS, ABC, and quoted in the New York Times, Washington Post, and Teen Vogue Welcome to the show, Heather. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that we finally were able to make this happen.

Heather White (00:39)
Yes, thank you, Jessica. It's wonderful to be here.

Jessica (00:43)
Heather, before we get started on talking about eco anxiety and your book, to help our listeners get to know you a little bit, can you share about your background in the environmental work that you've been doing and what first inspired you to pursue a career that's dedicated to saving our planet?

Heather White (01:01)
Well, thank you for that, Jessica. I grew up in East Tennessee, so I was really close to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. My earliest memories are outside with my parents. You my parents had the little baby backpack. I don't remember being in the baby backpack, but I certainly saw pictures, but we did a lot of hiking and camping. And I think when you're surrounded by that natural beauty, it makes such an impact on you. And actually, research shows that if you've had a meaningful outdoor experience by age 11,

you are more likely to have a lifelong conservation ethic. So that's kind of neat. But growing up in East Tennessee, just being in the outside and connecting to nature were just really part of my whole upbringing. But then I realized that I was also in an area near Oak Ridge National Laboratories where there were nuclear waste issues, there were cancer clusters issues, there were challenges with a lot of the coal fire plants in that area of the country as well.

where there was acid rain and challenges with air quality as well and water too. So I kind of saw there was this disconnect of being around all this beauty and connecting to nature, but also knowing that there was this real challenge that we had when it comes to protecting clean air and clean water in our public lands. And so that's why I started studying environmental science.

Jessica (02:18)
Ah, that's a really unique experience. I don't remember anything like that in my own childhood. And so it sounds like this was something that was talked about quite a bit amongst your own community, these challenges.

Heather White (02:32)
It was, I think it's part of being an East Tennessean is talking about what's happening around you to the environment. And that was really important. So I decided to study environmental science and then I got really interested in how decisions are made. I ended up working, well, I went to law school in my home estate, University of Tennessee. And then I worked for Al Gore's campaign in 2000. I was a recount lawyer. It didn't work out the way that I thought it would work out. But from there, I ended up running

Jessica (02:40)
Hmm.

You

Heather White (03:02)
national environmental nonprofits and also working on Capitol Hill for energy and environment issues. But this issue of eco anxiety was actually my kids that brought me to research this issue.

Jessica (03:13)
Yeah, can you tell us about that conversation that sparked the awareness about eco anxiety for you?

Heather White (03:20)
Yeah, my kids, my older daughter was in the ninth grade. My younger daughter was in the seventh grade and it was a dinner table conversation. My ninth grader asked permission to walk out of school to be part of the Greta Thunberg inspired climate strike at Bozeman. I'm in Bozeman, Montana now in Bozeman. And you know, I'm an environmentalist. So of course I said, well, yeah, I mean, you can walk out, but it was supposed to rain, which is actually like as a

As a southerner, snowstorms are very rare, but thunderstorms happen all the time. It's the reverse living in Bozeman, Montana. So there was going to be a big thunderstorm. So I said to her, you know what, why don't I just pick you up and I'll drive you to the climate protest, Jessica? That's what I said to my kid. I said this to her and my kid was like, wait, what? You're going to drive me in a gas car?

Jessica (04:04)
You

Heather White (04:12)
to a climate protest, you're gonna pick me up from a walkout, just so uncool. What are you thinking, mom? And she was like, you're worried about me getting rained on? You're worried about me carrying my trumpet and backpack, but what about my future and what are you doing and where are the baby boomers? Where's Gen X? Where are the millennials? You can't leave this all on our shoulders. And so Jessica, it was one of those conversations that just kind of stopped me in my tracks.

Jessica (04:30)
Mm.

Heather White (04:38)
because as I just recounted all the things I've done in the environment, this is my life's work. And if my kid, because my younger daughter was like, yeah, what she said, mom, they both felt so alone in climate action. They felt very uncertain about the future that we were leaving them. And if my kids felt that way, what was happening in other families around the dinner table?

Jessica (04:48)
Hmm.

⁓ that gets you in the heart, right? I have a son who's 14 and every now and then I'm thinking what, what is he thinking?

Heather White (05:10)
And when you were talking about having a 14 year old and you wonder what they're thinking, we make a lot of assumptions, Jessica. We really do. Like I just assumed that my kids knew what I was doing professionally, but I realized that I hadn't had the intentional conversations with them. Unlike my childhood where there was a lot of intentional conversations about the environment.

Jessica (05:16)
Mm.

Heather White (05:32)
But I didn't really have those intentional conversations about what I was doing in my day to day, what we were doing as a family, how our daily habits reflected our values. And so I realized that I needed to start researching the mental health impacts of the climate crisis, but also create a way for more people to have these conversations and to live this way. Because I think that's really interesting and insightful, Jessica, when you're saying like, you think you know what they're thinking. It's very different.

Jessica (05:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it is important to address eco anxiety as your book does. And can you talk about what that is? And, who it affects?

Heather White (06:13)
eco anxiety is a thing, Jessica. You know, thank you for this question. It's a real thing.

The American Psychological Association defines it as the chronic fear of environmental doom. It's actually been defined, was first defined in the Oxford English Dictionary in 2021. So it's pretty recent and it's unease or apprehension about the state of the environment and the impacts of climate change on the future. And the way that I define it in my books is really an uncertainty and anxiety about the future. And I feel like a lot,

Jessica (06:28)
Hmm. Yeah.

Heather White (06:46)
of people are dealing with this right now, this uncertainty about what the future is going to look like in ways that we haven't before as a culture or a society. And climate is a big driver of that. With young people especially, they are concerned. And there was a survey in September of 2025 of 16,000 young Americans ages 16 through 25, 85 % experienced climate anxiety.

on a daily basis, and one in two do not want to have children of their own because of the climate crisis. And I think that's a call to action for all of us to start having important conversations with young people about the future and getting involved in protecting the environment.

Jessica (07:34)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's those numbers when I read those. That's pretty staggering. And you wouldn't know it because nobody's really talking about it. I think it's something and can you explain why you think eco anxiety has become so prevalent, especially amongst that generation? Is there something that they're learning on their own? I don't feel like my son is learning this in school and he's 14.

Heather White (08:01)
Such a

great question, Jessica. In my research, I've identified what I call the eco-anxiety trifecta of why young people especially are feeling this anxiety driven by climate change. The first is Generation Z has the highest rates of anxiety and depression of any other generation. And this is even if you account for the fact that we talk about mental health in a much productive, more positive way than we ever have as a culture.

they are experiencing higher rates of anxiety and depression. The second reason is loneliness. Gen Z is the loneliest generation. There is an annual survey produced by Cigna each year and five out of 10 baby boomers experience chronic loneliness compared to eight out of 10 Gen Zers. Eight out of 10 experience loneliness. And then the third, and this is interesting, because I think you intuitively knew that this is part of it, the third,

Jessica (08:50)
Hmm.

Heather White (08:55)
is a hyper awareness of climate crisis driven by social media. It's not necessarily being taught in school, but it's driven by social media. think parents like me, maybe you do this, I know I do. I kind of thought that I'm worried about cyber bullying when it comes to social media. I'm worried about attention. I'm worried about the fear of missing out. Like was Jessica invited to a party, but Heather wasn't invited to the party. But we underestimate how often young people are seeing

climate-fueled disasters in real time globally reported by young people their own age. So whether it's TikTok, whether it's Instagram, you platform that's going to be invented, young people are seeing floods. They're seeing the hurricanes in North Carolina. They're seeing wildfires right now in South Carolina and North Carolina, the fires in LA, but they're also seeing drought in Kenya. They're seeing

Jessica (09:37)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (09:55)
floods in Beijing, China, they're seeing all this in real time in a way that we don't necessarily have that exposure to. So that's what I call the eco-anxiety trifecta. Those three factors, first, high rates of generalized anxiety and depression. The second is loneliness. And the third is this hyper awareness of the issue. So I do think they're learning a lot about it.

Jessica (10:16)
I guess this isn't an area that I am familiar with because my son doesn't have social media yet But yeah, that's very interesting. And I do see the loneliness though, which is, you know, just sad. And that's a whole separate topic, I'm sure. But I think that it does, you're saying, play into this because

It's all tied to, mental health.

Heather White (10:43)
Yes, I think the loneliness does tie into the climate anxiety because not having community and not being rooted in community and feeling seen and feeling like you matter does impact your view of what the future may look like. And having a son who's not on social media, Jessica, kudos to you. I'm really impressed that you've been able to hold the line. Our kids started when they were freshmen, they were allowed to have

Jessica (11:01)
Hmm.

Heather White (11:12)
have Instagram. And I think one of the things we want to be careful about when we're talking about social media is making sure that we allow space for young people to be heard, that a lot of this anxiety is their lived experience. The way that they are living and interacting with the world is so different than when we were growing up. I mean, I did not experience first person shooter drills. You know, there were tornado drills when I was growing up in school, but not

Jessica (11:13)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Heather White (11:41)
first-person shooter drills. Yes, there was income inequality. Of course there was when I was growing up, but not like we see now. The challenges that these young people have are very different than our lived experience. So think making space for that and realizing these are really stressful times is important for us all. But...

This is the thing that my husband always jokes. He's like, how are you invited to parties? know, like it's like, everybody's in pain. Everybody's suffering. What is the future going to be? But I think we have to first acknowledge all the feelings that young people are having. We need to make sure that older generations are aware. And then we need to have intentional conversations about the future we want to create, because it doesn't just happen to us. We're architects of the future. You know?

Jessica (12:18)
You

Heather White (12:34)
our actions really do matter. And that's one of the reasons that I created One Green Thing, the nonprofit, is just making sure we're having these conversations about what's possible. Because I think we all get what the apocalypse could look like. But what are we working toward? What could we create together? And I think young people need to be, we need to reach out to them and start talking about it. Not in a Pollyanna, everything's gonna be okay, everything's fine way, but really, what does it look like when we try to...

to meet this goal of a sustainable, healthier, greener, more just future.

Jessica (13:10)
Yeah, so can you walk us through, sounds like that's how we can support this generation right now, is to start meaningful conversations around the dinner table with them. Are there any other ways that you suggest to support them?

Heather White (13:26)
Yeah, thank you for that, Jessica. That's another

great question. In my books, I do have discussion guides, but I also have a way for you to start thinking about climate because I realized not only after that dinner table conversation with my kids, I needed to start researching the impacts of climate on mental health. I also needed to create a way for more people to see themselves in the environment and protecting the environment and climate action. And what I realized in the environmental community,

we tend to start the conversation in the wrong place. We always start with the what, like do this, not that. Here's a great tip, do that, not this. Instead of asking the most important question when it comes to individual behavior change and the psychology of individual behavior change, and that is who, the who, who are you? Who are you in service? How do you show up for the people you love? What are your values? What do you want your legacy to be?

And when we start the conversation with the who, we're more likely to do the what because it's aligned with our sense of self and our identity. So I created an assessment. It's a little bit like Myers Briggs or Enneagram. It's on onegreenthing.org. takes five minutes. And there's seven different archetypes that help you identify what your strengths are in service. And then I match you to a daily practice of sustainability. So that's kind of like the format, but there's a neat way for you to do it as a family. You can say, look, Jessica,

You know, you are a sage. You're really connected to the spiritual connection to nature. know, Heather, you're a philanthropist. You're all about donating your time and volunteering. And that's how you show up for the people you love. And you can kind of see kind of what your strengths are as a family and then how you want to move forward doing a daily practice of sustainability. So I call it an eco action plan that you can do as a family. And it can be everything from like, you know, my older daughter decided that she wanted to learn more about

policies and what clean energy policies were. And then she tried to ask herself, know, is signing an online petition, does that even matter? You know, and my younger daughter was like, I really want to focus on girls education. And so she donated to the Malala Fund and she was like, mom, I'm in eighth grade and I donated a hundred dollars to the Malala Fund. You know, I'm not solving anything with a hundred dollars, but the whole point is that.

Jessica (15:31)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (15:46)
This intentional action can shift the culture and make you feel better about the future and know that you're doing your part, you're exercising agency.

Jessica (15:54)
I really like that. That's the best part about the book it gives you some steps to take and putting it together with doing that with your teenagers if you have them at home is a great idea. I'm actually like, why didn't I think of that?

Heather White (16:11)
Well,

and Jessica, I want to be really clear because I don't know about your teenagers, but my teenagers gave me a lot of feedback on my parenting. I'll just leave it at that. I got a lot of feedback. And so this whole exercise, like say, for example, I'm going to switch to safer cosmetics, cleaner cosmetics, or I'm going to decide to skip the straw. It is not like my kids were like, great, mom, just saved the planet, know, like within the eye roll.

Right, but it's not about our individual carbon footprints. It's not like counting calories. I think a lot of people, of course they wanna know what their impact is, but that whole concept was created by the oil and gas industry as a PR gimmick to try to shift the burden of climate change, which is primarily caused by their products, oil and gas, which we're dependent on. They wanted to shift the burden to us.

Jessica (16:42)
You

Heather White (17:06)
So I try to say, don't get caught up in your carbon dioxide equivalent emissions as an individual. Focus on the culture shift that you're trying to create so big policies and big market solutions can work. Because we don't have that culture shift. We don't have people signing up. I mean, a lot of people didn't sign up for the Biden EV. I didn't. It wasn't my time to buy a car. the Biden administration had an EV credit for $7,500. But if people don't sign up for it, if we don't have that culture shift, just because it's there doesn't mean it's happening. And now it's gone.

Right, that culture shift is really important for the impact that we need.

Jessica (17:36)
Mm-hmm.

I'm so glad that you brought that up because I went through all of your resources while I was preparing for this interview

and your TEDx talk mentions that individual change can contribute to like 25 % reduction in carbon emissions, right? But the culture change is what can truly make that movement and shift it to like a 75 % And can you explain what you mean, like just kind of

Heather White (18:04)
Yes!

Jessica (18:06)
pull that in and tie it to some of the other environmental challenges that we're experiencing right now, because there's a lot out there. I just feel like that's the message that I'm trying to bring across, is that if people actually do make changes, it can add up. And this cultural changes, I think this is the conversation, right? Because if we're all doing it, then it becomes such a

big impact, you say 75%. Can you talk about that?

Heather White (18:39)
Yeah, I think you did a beautiful job, Jessica. That was great. So Project Drawdown, which is a terrific resource on climate solutions, says that individual and household actions globally can contribute 25 % of the carbon emissions that we need. And what I say in the TED Talk isn't technically that culture change equals 75%, but in order to get to the 75%, we have got to have the culture change because that 75 % is dependent on

political solutions and market solutions. It's not a new technology. We're not waiting for a new technology to solve the climate crisis. We have all the technology that we need. What we are waiting for is a global investment into clean energy, for every nation to have it at scale. And that includes the global north and the global south, the people in Nigeria who have all kinds of oil.

How do we fairly shift them to a clean energy economy when oil is their primary natural resource that they have? I that's not true to say it's primary, but it is very economically important to them right now. if they can't have the technological advancements and investments that we have benefiting from their natural resources, how do we do that fairly? So those types of.

and then how do we do with refrigerants? There's a lot of nerdy solutions, but they're out there, but we only get them if the culture is demanding it. And that culture shift, not only does that daily practice help you do what you can and exercise your agency to shift the culture, that intentionality and that daily practice of sustainability, which I call a one green thing, it's rooted in compassion. And compassion is at the center of

Jessica (20:08)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (20:29)
this practice that we're doing because we have to recognize that climate justice is really important and that the people who have contributed the least amount of carbon pollution are suffering the most. That's true racially, that's true economically, that's true when I mentioned the global north and the global south, it's true internationally, but it's also true intergenerationally. And so, you know, I graduated high school in 1991, the majority of

Jessica (20:43)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (20:57)
carbon pollution in today's atmosphere was created after 1991. So my kids, and if I ever have grandkids, are going to suffer more from pollution created in my lifetime than I will.

Jessica (21:10)
Yeah, that puts it into perspective.

Heather White (21:11)
Yeah. Right.

Right. And so that's one of the things too. And having seen the Ted talk, thank you, Jessica, for doing that A plus on your preparation for the interview. But the theme of this is this idea of thinking like an awesome ancestor. Like we need to really lean into this idea of what is our personal legacy. We need to understand that there is an intergenerational commitment that we have that this can't be, you my kids say to me, mom, we don't.

Jessica (21:26)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (21:39)
We're kind of sick of all this praise about Gen Z young activists and Greta this and Greta that and we need your help. We don't want to be all alone. We can't. We're running out of time. We can't save the earth. We need other generations to partner with us. And I think that's an important part. And I think what happens, Jessica, and I know it is with all the people that you've interviewed. I'm sure you've heard this time and time again and maybe experienced it. People looking to you for guidance. Where do I start?

Jessica (22:08)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (22:08)
You know,

okay, I skipped a straw, I bike to work. How does that even make an impact? And the reason it makes an impact is we're all cultural change agents in our communities. What we do matters. We have to exercise agency when we can. But if we're able to put the behavior into a context of who you are and what you want your legacy to be, it makes more sense. You don't have to be all things to all people. You don't have to have a PhD to be part of the environmental movement. You just have to care.

Jessica (22:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like that's the most important point to make is that all you need to do is have compassion and to care for, you know, even if you just find one thing to care about, right? Like if it's the dolphins or sharks, you know, they're all impacted by things happening in the environment as well. So if you get passionate about one thing,

then you can find what it is that's going to support that one thing and their environment and get on board with that movement. And, well.

Heather White (23:15)
I love that, Jessica. Absolutely,

and I call it the one green thing, but yes, it can be your one thing that you're passionate about, and I think this is what I hope is the most important takeaway of our conversation for your listeners, is that everyone is welcome. Everyone is needed in this movement. There are a lot of people who wanna get involved in the environmental movement, it's a big word when I use the word movement, but they wanna be greener.

Jessica (23:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (23:42)
They wanna have a healthier future for the next generation, but they're afraid of being judged. They're afraid of doing it wrong. And so like, if I love the dolphins, but drive an SUV, can I still be an environmentalist? And my answer is yes. It is, I think that people feel there's kind of like this gotcha moment or how could you possibly be in a quote alignment, you know, if you're not a vegan and you say you're an environmentalist, I'm just like, let's put that all to the side.

Jessica (23:47)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (24:09)
Everyone is welcome, everyone is needed, everyone has unique strengths in service to others. You find out what your strengths are and you pick your thing and you do one thing every day, which I call the green thing, one green thing, to try to make that difference and do what you can in your community. And I think we've got to let go of people feeling like they're doing it wrong.

Jessica (24:21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I agree because there's this feeling out there, I think that if you're not doing it all and you're not doing it right, then why do it? But it's really the opposite. It's like, no, just focus on one thing that you can do and then, when that's good and you're solid on that, then you can move to the next thing. And like for me, it's plastic pollution. That's my passion. Ever since I learned about

Heather White (24:45)
Yeah!

Yeah.

Jessica (25:02)
what it's doing to our oceans and marine life. I was driven to eliminate as much as I could of my own use and my household plastic went down probably at least 80%. You there's some that you just still can't avoid, instead of beating myself up about it, I just focus on what I have been able to reduce and...

not what I can't because there's some things that you just can't avoid. And even though you're doing your best, you just have to, know that if you're talking about it, maybe things will begin to shift. so is, and this is what I do to help myself feel less overwhelmed. And I guess, you know, I didn't really know the term climate and our eco anxiety, excuse me, but I know I did feel very overwhelmed when I learned all about plastic pollution.

And instead of focusing on the stress about plastic, I just focused on making the shifts for the environment instead of like plastic is so bad and all the chemicals in it and the stress about how that might impact your health. I just was like, well, it's really bad for the ocean as well. So let's focus on doing it for that reason. And so is that how your

suggesting we are able to cope a little bit more with eco anxiety if we're feeling it.

Heather White (26:32)
Yes, absolutely. And the term eco anxiety is synonymous with climate anxiety, eco grief, solastalgia. There's a lot of terms now in the literature that climate psychologists and climate psychiatrists are actually fields now of climate psychology and climate psychiatry are using. I prefer eco anxiety because it does incorporate species extinction and plastic pollution. It's not just climate. But I think, as you know, Jessica, it's all related. Plastic production and

climate are connected because plastic is made of oil. And when you start thinking about the fact that we eat a credit card size of plastic, you know, each week, when you think about the health impacts it could have on you, it is overwhelming. So that's exactly the approach that I'm endorsing, encouraging people to take is find out what your strengths are in service, adopt this practice of one green thing in the issue area that means the most to you in a way that it works for you.

understanding that sometimes, like say for example, you want to use greener cleaning products and you find a brand and you love it and it turns out there's a report that it has a chemical in it that wasn't disclosed and you have to change it. This happens all the time. All the time. But when you know better, you just change and you choose better. It's actually that simple. It's not black and white all the time. It changes.

Jessica (27:41)
All the time.

Hmm

Heather White (27:54)
And so when the science changes and you learn more, you change your behavior, but the intentionality matters in this context because of that culture shift is so, the culture shift is so urgent in order for us to talk about climate. in our political climate, it's challenging because right now, you know, that it's not widely accepted with the leadership that we're seeing in the highest political levels, climate change. I hope you appreciate how diplomatic I'm being with that. That's really challenging.

Jessica (28:21)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (28:23)
But the

science is still there, the impacts are still there, we're still seeing it. So no matter what people try to call it, this daily practice is gonna help you ease your anxiety, especially when the things we care the most are under attack.

Jessica (28:38)
so you did jump in there. So I'm gonna kind of go there a little bit because our first scheduled interview was I think before a lot of this stuff started happening recently with all of the removal of environmental protections and can you give people a little bit of advice on what to focus on?

Heather White (28:41)
Sure, sure.

Jessica (29:05)
because that's a big thing. And I think a lot of people are feeling very overwhelmed and upset and, you know, a whole gamut of emotions. we can call it eco anxiety because it stirs it up. And, instead of focusing on the bad thing that just happened, we'll just bring it back to your book and

pick it up and start doing what you can. I guess that would be the answer possibly to how people are feeling right now.

Heather White (29:35)
Yeah, Jessica, A plus answer on that too. That is how to cope with this. But before we talk about the action part, because of course action can help abate anxiety, we have to acknowledge the range of emotions that we're feeling and the reality. And the reality is the speed at which these executive orders are happening from the current administration, rolling back forever chemicals and drinking water, protection.

Jessica (29:51)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (30:05)
from lead pipes trying to no longer replace lead pipes. There was a huge grant program that's been frozen. Impacts on even saying the word environmental justice, which has been around since the Reagan era. The EPA Office of Environmental Justice has been dismantled. All these things that we care about are under attack and we can't soften that. We can't act like it's not happening.

The speed at which all of these attacks are happening is the point. There is a tremendous amount of litigation. I think ultimately many of these acts are illegal and that the courts will say that they are. Will the administration abide by court decisions to be determined? We don't know. So I think that we can't act like it's business as usual because it's not. It's not even business as usual with a transition of different, you know, different.

Different political parties have different values and whenever there's a new president that comes in, we change our positions on things. But when we're talking about Canada being the 51st state, I mean, I know I'm not, that's not an environmental issue, but of course it's all related. That, like it is not business as usual. So we have to acknowledge that. How do we move forward? I have had friends tell me they feel like they're in COVID again.

but that instead of COVID, like the pod is like, okay, I gotta go deep into my community and I gotta connect with my people and I gotta protect the people that I love and the issues that I care about. And I think a lot of people are feeling that COVID sense of like hunkering down, you know, really connecting to community. And I think we have to connect with community and yes, you have to hunker down and yes, you have to realize democracy is not a spectator sport.

You gotta get in the game. And the way you get in the game is you make those calls to members of Congress. It's my favorite one green thing. 202-224-3121. That's what I do. I do it like regularly, like every other day. like rotate around. I just remember, I live in Montana. My elected officials do not share my values, full stop period. But I still call them. I still send emails. I still write letters. I do all of those things because those are, that's how I can take action. And it does matter.

Jessica (32:10)
you

Heather White (32:29)
And it is important because I used to be a congressional staffer and my job was to help advise the Senator on what the appropriate response would be to a letter that came in on a particular issue. So I know that those are people's jobs and I make them do their jobs. That is what democracy looks like. So I think that understanding that we do have to deep down focus on our communities, the impact, you're in San Diego, Jessica, you can make a difference on ocean pollution and plastic pollution. Like what you do right there really matters in your zip code.

Jessica (32:29)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (32:57)
Really deeply

connecting to friends, but also demanding your members of Congress, even if they share your values, demanding that they do more and stand up for the next generation because it is not hard to break things. It's not super easy to break things. It is very hard to build things. And we can undo the tremendous amount of progress that we've seen quickly. And it's hard for me to believe at this point that when we're having this conversation, we're two months into a new presidential.

only two months in. And it's a long, you know, three years and 10 months we have ahead of us. And so we have to, for people who care about these issues, you know, this bipartisanship, I grew up in this world of bipartisanship where you could talk about issues, have different policy views, but those conversations are so rare now, like where people are having legitimate policy discussions. So.

Jessica (33:27)
Only two months. Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (33:55)
My advice is get in the game, make your voice heard, really hang on to each other and move in close and have conversations with people that you care about that do disagree with you. Do it with respect, do it with love, do it with intention and take action.

Jessica (34:14)
Beautiful, beautifully said. And one of my questions for you actually, this kind of rolls right into that because for me, and you might think this is interesting or find it funny because I'm on a podcast talking about the environment and sustainability and saving the planet, it's very hard for me to start conversations, these conversations with my friends and family.

to a point where I don't even talk about it at all. I just wanna raise awareness. And so maybe that's why I started the podcast. So I could talk to someone about it. But really, for me feels, I don't wanna feel overly negative or come across as being overwhelming to people

And so do you have some advice on how to approach these discussions in a way that's constructive and more empowering and less, doom and gloom?

Heather White (35:16)
Jessica, first of all, you're not alone. You're not alone at all. I love that you have a podcast to have these conversations. But what's interesting is having a conversation with someone you've known for 30 years or a family member is way more vulnerable. It just is. It just is. And the risks seem a lot higher. So I think timing is important about when you have conversations. Here's the first step, and I probably have a different.

Jessica (35:33)
Completely.

Heather White (35:44)
Again, I'm from East Tennessee and I live in Montana. So I'm surrounded by a lot of people who don't agree with me. What I used to do is just let them talk and just do my thing. And now I say, hey, I put my hand, I really like, hey, I have a different perspective than you do and I don't wanna have this conversation right now. If you do wanna have the conversation, I can do it. I just need you to know.

Jessica (35:56)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (36:13)
that we're gonna both have to really respect each other's point of view and you're gonna have to hear me. And sometimes when I do that, people are just kind of like, and when I say people, I mean, these people I've known for a really long time, these are my friends and family, okay, it's not like a random person I met at a coffee shop. They're kind of like taking it back, because I used to just listen to them. So just even the act of saying, disagree, is pretty, it takes a lot of courage to do that. And sometimes I have a conversation, sometimes I don't.

Jessica (36:33)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (36:44)
Um, the other thing is, um, I always try to ask why, you know, like, Hey, when someone says something and they do seem like they're open to a conversation, I ask why. one of the things Jessica, I realize, and I'm sure many of your listeners have had this experience. We live in different worlds when it comes to media and social media. We live in different worlds. The algorithm that brought you to me is very different from many people that I love and respect.

It's so different. And so I try to diversify my social media feed so I can see what other people are seeing. And I think that's really important for all of us. And issues that are front and center for us aren't necessarily appearing on other TV channels or other social media channels. So I always try to say, here's what I'm hearing, what are you hearing? And it's all always very interesting. I think what becomes challenging

Jessica (37:33)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather White (37:43)
is when things are presented as fact versus opinion.

climate change is real, it's a fact. 99.9 % of the scientific community, I have this site in my book, United Nations, says that climate change is real, we're experiencing more extreme weather because of carbon dioxide pollution in the atmosphere, primarily caused by our energy choices, burning oil and gas, full stop, period, it's a fact. Whether or not Jessica should be,

know, EPA administrator is a matter of opinion. Right? And so that becomes a challenge. but what I would just say is bring in close, rooted in compassion, ask, ask questions, and then also have a boundary, have a boundary and to say like, you know what, I, I, we can't talk about this right now. And then diversify your social media feed. That was really honest. That wasn't super hopeful. That wasn't like, you're going to bring people to your side and change their point of view.

Jessica (38:39)
Hmm.

Heather White (38:45)
but sometimes just by knowing someone else that you respect has a different opinion. I know it does for me. It makes you think differently.

Jessica (38:54)
Hmm, that's a good tip. I'm gonna have to do that. I don't even know where to begin on that because what are other people seeing?

Heather White (39:02)
I mean, I'll just say, like, I visit Fox News every day. I do not watch Fox News. I don't think any of your listeners will be shocked that I don't have it on in the background. But I look at it every day. It's a different world. It is a different world than what I'm seeing on social media and reading. I do look at, you know, some conservative host social media stuff just to, like, just to make sure I see what they're seeing. You know, I see what family members are seeing.

Jessica (39:05)
Mm-hmm.

You

And it.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Heather White (39:31)
And it's just like we are in a different, we're in a different world. But it's good for me to know that that's what they're seeing because then I'm not as surprised. Like Russian hoax, like I keep hearing the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. And I'm like, I don't even know what that is. What is the Russia hoax? You know, and so that's important to learn more about those things.

Jessica (39:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, true.

That's a great tip because I feel like if you can understand what someone else is talking about and you can relate to it a little bit, you know, from just knowing what it is that they're exposed to and how they're forming their opinions and their responses to yours, it's valuable.

Heather White (40:15)
It is. It's important. And then you realize that

the people that you know and love and you respect and think are intelligent, why there is such this wide gap between what you value and you think is the right policy versus what they value and they think is the right policy. And when you see what inputs they're receiving, you can empathize more with them.

Jessica (40:37)
And maybe coming back to your book, if you knew a little bit about what their personality is and who they are, then maybe you can find something to sneak in and be sneaky about the environment and maybe personalize it a little bit towards their unique superpower. And that way they feel a little bit more

Heather White (40:44)
Mm-hmm.

I love that Jessica.

Jessica (41:04)
connected and empowered maybe because the environment is something that we all have in common. We all need clean air, clean water and clean soil to not only survive but to thrive in health. And so I think everybody wants that. I don't anybody wants to not have clean air to breathe, right? And yeah, so if you can just bring it to a topic that maybe can be a little bit more shared and maybe

Heather White (41:26)
Exactly.

Jessica (41:34)
leave some of the politics out of it and just start talking about what we can do. Like the one thing that maybe they would feel inspired to do based on what their personality strength, superpower is. And yeah, can you talk, and I always like to focus on like what it is that people can do with the things that they're bringing into their home every day, what they're buying, the kind of.

even food choices that we're making, can you touch on those things a little bit? Because I feel like that's a conversation that we could gently have with almost anyone.

Heather White (42:05)
Absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely. I was thinking it more in context of the politics because that seems to be the most polarization, but I think you're right. just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Because it's not business as usual right now. But we do still have these common values, as you said so beautifully, Jessica.

Jessica (42:18)
I agree though, I'm glad you brought that up because it's so important, right now especially. So important, no.

Heather White (42:34)
of clean air, clean water, of public lands, not being sold, but being preserved for future generation and taken care of and stewarded correctly. The way that I love this idea of the one green thing and what you're bringing into your home, the products that you're choosing, the idea of like, just try Meatless Mondays, just be more plant-based once a week, making these choices.

making sure that you take a walk in nature. know, one of the things that I think is important is that a one green thing doesn't have to be a purchase or not a purchase. It doesn't have to be a, you know, giving away like a lot of times people are like, my gosh, environmentalists are going to take everything from me. You know, it's not, it's an adding to, you know, like a walk in nature. So many of us are disconnected from the natural world, especially young people and just having time in the park.

Jessica (43:16)
Hmm

Heather White (43:25)
Reading a spiritual text that means something to you, outside, contemplating that, journaling, all of these things are really important. And when you talk about reducing your plastic footprint, I think that is a way for people to start seeing just how different the world that we're leaving our children is than we grew up with. mean, just plastic being everywhere, bananas being wrapped in plastic at the grocery store. I know we've all seen that.

Jessica (43:54)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (43:54)
just plastic

forks everywhere and just simple things you can do like to go ware like bamboo or reusable. When you're traveling, I travel a lot, I always try to have reusable utensils with me so I don't grab the plastic fork, the reusable water bottles, cloth napkins, just all these simple things. They don't solve the climate crisis, but they're things that you can do that are fun and bring more joy into your life and can make those differences.

Jessica (44:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, every everything helps right and so I think that your book is a beautiful way to guide people through this process of starting to do something and finding that something to do.

Heather White (44:24)
Yes, it

Jessica (44:38)
because I feel like a lot of people are just deer in the headlights right now. Like, I don't even know where to begin.

Heather White (44:38)
Yes and-

Yeah, ⁓ yeah, it's

just a freeze, know, freeze. And it's understandable that a lot of people are feeling that freeze impact. But this idea that you do what's authentic to you, like you found ocean pollution and thinking about single use plastic, Jessica, you know, and someone else might say, you know, I really wanna protect endangered species or.

Jessica (44:48)
Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Heather White (45:06)
I really care about sustainable food and soil health. That's my passion. Or, you know, I compost and I'm not a gardener, Jessica. Like my family laughs because I will kill any household plant. Like my husband takes care of the living things. Yeah, exactly. But I love composting. I just turn the soil, but I'm not planting anything. I just know that food waste makes a huge impact. And a lot of people when they throw it.

Jessica (45:21)
Me too.

On the climate.

Totally.

Heather White (45:31)
Yeah, exactly. On the climate.

So I'm really glad to do that. So you can do these things. And I also love, of course, calling my member of Congress, but that's not for everybody. And it's okay. It's okay that we can all show up in ways that are authentic to us. And I think the other thing, even though we talked about politics and I did share what news sources I read and what I don't or what I make myself read, I think it's important again to underscore that everyone is welcome. Everyone is needed, no matter your political point of view.

no matter your background, no matter your educational level, your income level, everyone is welcome and everyone is needed in this movement because it is up to us. Erin Brockovich is a dear friend. She wrote the forward to my books and she has a book called Superman's Not Coming. And it's like, no one is coming to save us, right? It's up to all of us and it's up to us collectively. It's both individual action and collective action. It's not either or, it's...

We all have to, we have to have systemic change, but we only get systemic change through individual change. And that's why everyone is welcome and everyone is needed.

Jessica (46:34)
well said. It's so important right now to have these conversations. thank you so much for giving some good advice and sharing all of your wisdom and shedding some light on this very, you know, it's, it's an

it's there and we all know it's there type of conversation. This topic is, it's at the forefront, right? It's in the news, we're seeing it and yet it's just, it's intimidating, And if we're not having these conversations with our people in our communities, and so for me, it's other mothers, then how can we have these conversations with the children who are obviously struggling with eco-anxiety at levels that

you know, who knew? And you also have onegreenthing.org. And I wanted to have you share more about that organization because there is a lot going on there.

that can help people navigate their eco journey and take meaningful action for the planet. maybe that's another great way for people to connect and plug into what they can do to take action.

Heather White (47:45)
Thank you so much, Jessica. And it is, it provides a nice framework for you and a community, which I think a lot of people are really seeking community right now, a community that's not judgmental, a community that welcomes everybody, whatever their expertise or interest is. So, onegreenthing.org I created, realizing that we needed to have this conversation about the intersection between climate and mental health, but also rooted in the idea that

Joyful, joyful is a keyword, joyful daily action can help you manage your ego anxiety, your anxiety about the future. And so the different tools we have, we have this assessment, which is this five minute online quiz. It's very fun to take that asks, who are you in service? And then you can also download a seven day plan to get started on a daily practice of sustainability based on your archetype. There's seven different archetypes to just right away.

starting to get active. There's also meditations you can do on onegreenthing.org. One of the meditations I like the most is envisioning what the healthier, greener, more just future looks like. Because I feel like we haven't spent enough time in the environmental community really talking about what we're working towards. Like what do we want? We're playing defense so hard we forget to talk about what we could create. Then there's also the Eco Impact Top 10. As much as I say like

Jessica (49:07)
Mm-hmm.

Heather White (49:12)
Let's not count carbon like calories for individuals. It still shows you what your top 10 impacts can be, whether it be washing your clothes in water, having more of a plant-based diet, thinking about your air travel. It also talks about talking about climate change, talking about environmental action as one of the biggest things you can do. And then finally, there's a fun resource called the Joy Tracker. And these are also in my books, but the Joy Tracker is a little diary where you decide what one green thing brings you the most joy.

Jessica (49:31)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Heather White (49:41)
You

may not like calling your member of Congress, but you may really enjoy that walk outside. You may really enjoy time in the garden or you may find out it's not what you're good at. You enjoy doing something different, whether it's volunteering at a local land trust or working with an animal shelter or making sure that you're working with a local food bank and trying to create healthier, more sustainable options at the local food bank. There are all these opportunities for you. And I think the most important thing, Jessica, is ultimately

Jessica (49:46)
Mm-hmm.

You

Heather White (50:11)
This whole concept of climate action, environmental action, and I talk about intergenerational equity and being a good ancestor. The whole idea is it's service leadership, service to others. We're all in this together and we need to keep working together even with our disagreements, even with differing values. We all really do value clean air, clean water and land. We need to work together to preserve it because ultimately it impacts our health and our experience here on this beautiful

Jessica (50:22)
Hmm.

you

I love that service to others. it's in service to the greater good. to the creation. I think that's a beautiful place for us to wrap up our conversation. You've shared so much with us and I'm going to link to all of your resources in the show notes.

Heather White (50:45)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica (50:57)
And I am so grateful that we were able to finally find time to have this conversation. think I never get upset when things delay because I feel like it's always for the best, for some sort of higher good. I...

I think that a lot of people are feeling a lot of anxiety right now based on what we talked about happening so quickly in the government. And I think people needed to hear this and have this resource now at their fingertips. so thank you, Heather.

Heather White (51:27)
Thank you.

Thank you so much, Jessica, for the opportunity to share my work and for all that you do to help people live a greener, healthier life. Thank you.

Jessica (51:36)
And I can say the same thank you for all the work that you've done and and that you continue doing and sharing and raising awareness. You're out there, boots on the ground doing this in a big way. So we appreciate it.

Heather White (51:50)
Thank you.